Ban Previous Cheaters

[GS3k]

I've had some back and forth discussion with Paco on the subject and I'm personally against unilaterally banning previous cheaters but apparently there are a lot of people with strong feelings to the contrary.

So let's have it, should previous cheaters be banned from P.U.G.ing and barred from future events?

Vote yes or no and comment.

[PACO]

I don't know what discussions we had on cheating. I just doublechecked my logs to make sure that I'm not losing my mind. I know we talked about DDoSers where I said that I have a zero tolerance policy and you were on the other side of the spectrum. The anti-DDoS policies will remain in effect for anything OwnedWell sanctioned whether it is events or channels.

The topic of cheaters is a lot more complicated. We have a cheat policy for UT99. We don't have anything established yet for UT4. This is something that the OwnedWell team will discuss and the situation is further complicated by the fact that we might be adding some extra games.

I don't see a public thread like this yielding anything productive since it's such a polarizing and multi-layered subject.

[RickJames]

It's a judgement call.

I think people who've been caught in the past 4 years (at least) in any game played here should definitely be banned until that time frame is up. And even after that, I think they deserve extra scrutiny before/while being allowed back into competition, especially if they never admitted to things etc.

Outside of that (cheaters from a long time ago, people who weren't logged but just questionable, etc), I think the admins need to weigh things and make a call. It doesn't make sense to ban someone like blackout, who's been playing clean competitively for years now, at this stage. However, if someone like Bullet (tdm player who was caught with illegal tweaks many times and was pretty unrepentent about it) came back, I think it would be a tough call since he hasn't established that he's trustworthy.

[linoleumbonaparte]

four fucking years? y'all are bonkers. relieve all bans and wipe the baby tears from y'all's eyes. it's a new game, a new era, new competition, a new community.

[PACO]

[RickJames]

I don't see how a new game changes anything. It's not about vengeance or "baby tears", it's about keeping the community as clean and trustworthy as we can. Cheating in a video game in a community like this shows some real character defects, and history shows that convicted cheaters tend to be repeat offenders. I don't think such people contribute much positively.

Also, if you really think this is going to be some kind of "new era" of competition, and you expect activity to pick up that much, having a handful of lowlifes in the community shouldn't be that important to you. On the other hand, if you think that the playerbase here is going to continue to be small enough that having such people around makes a difference, then you can't use the "new era" justification for giving them a blank slate. You have to pick one.

[csnafk]

I think anyone that was banned for DDosing should remain banned from us but as far as x22ers go this game is different, let them play.

[nvz]

I've already discussed with a few people mentioning that we cannot properly do anything or invest in any type of investigation regarding anyone being suspected of cheating. Me and a few other guys have an idea of who's cheating in the competitive community, and a few European guys told me they have a few hackers, as well.

There are at least a dozen compatible hacks/cheats available for ut, half of them being radars or wall hacks. These can put you at the highest advantage possible, especially on the duel game type. It is also the easiest to hide. Trigger aim bots are also an issue, knowing that you can enable and disable your aim bot with the use of a hotkey.

I'm not really sure what Epic will do regarding this problem. We can't do much about it until a proper anti cheat comes out. But what will anti cheat do? Nothing. It will catch old cheat clients, but cheat developers are always updating their new cheat software to bypass anti cheat software implemented in the game.

Also, manipulating your ping or creating packet loss can cause less damage. This may be intentional or accidental. I'll post a video here soon explaining how it's done. What happens is that if you create packet loss for yourself, the game thinks you are actually further away from the intended spot, especially splash damage. You can actually take no damage at all in some situations. Accidental or not, I think people with this issue need to get their isp to fix this before entering any tournaments. It's a real game changer.

What can Owned Well do in the future to prevent cheaters?

Anti cheat is the most obvious. As mentioned above, we need to wait on Epic to implement it. Anti cheat is not the most reliable form of preventing a hacker from gaining the advantage, though.

Proper demo recording is a must. Right now I believe demo recording is only possible on official epic hubs. This feature should be available on all hubs and servers, no excuses. ALL players should be recording their own demos for tournaments and be providing them to a Dropbox after a round is over in a duel tournament. Again, no excuses. It's pretty easy and self explanatory.

Random screenshots should be taken during a player's match and uploaded to the server drop box. This can show if the user has any hacks enabled on their screen.

I think once we have the 3 things above enabled on our servers in the next year, we can get a roll on some tournaments. Besides, this gives epic some time to fix some issues with the core game play and net code(yeah we know the weapons still need nerfed!).

Like I said, nothing you can do. Nobody should be banned right now. Everyone gets their second chance starting now. I though giving my 2 cents on this wouldn't hurt. It is okay to run something like another factions ctf tournament, factions TDM, small CA/TAM tournaments in the future, but nothing serious until we have proper tools to do any investigations.

[linoleumbonaparte]

we're talking about banning people who are convicted cheaters in OTHER VIDEO GAMES. WHICH IS INSANE.

HEY GUYS I USED TO DUPE ITEMS IN DIABLO 2. CUFF ME AND FUCK ME PLZ.

everyone trying a new game should have the same right to attempt a spot in the competitive community without being scrutinized for past actions. i've used a radar before, i know how they work. there will always be people who want to get that slight competitive edge, but i don't expect to have my league of legends account banned because a clan mate sent me a radar in 2003 in Unreal Tournament. nobody playing this new game knows about or cares about the previously convicted cheaters from a 2012 draft tournament in fucking instagib CTF for UT99.

[Sauron]

Demos might be easy but they aren't enforced in this community even when required. Last season when a demo was requested it was never submitted for the finals. Suspected players in the recent past have not submitted required demos and received no ban.

[GS3k]

[de`pain]

Cheaters will always cheat ;/ It's in their DNA. They might go through a "legit / detox" phase, but will eventually go back to abusing the system as cheats become far more advanced and subtle.

I know of at least 2 cheaters in the UT4 community. They are very prominent players, too. I personally witnessed one of them hacking, but was unable to obtain a video of it. However, someone just this morning linked me to a video of this particular player wall-hacking.

Very disappointing. I had a lot of respect for this player ;/

[de`pain]

[csnafk]

[linoleumbonaparte]

[Sauron]

What about a guy like lavak3 who has constantly cheated in every ut?

[massie]

should keep certain ppl banned who did too much to fuck ut99 community up so its a new game and everything is forgotten and forgiven ? i vote yes

[lavak3]

[Numb]

I might be ok with playing with convicted cheaters in tournaments as long as they demorec their client. If they don't have the files at the end of the tournament and end up winning it, then their win shouldn't count.

[PACO]

[Numb]

[BUDDY]

i think all cheaters should be banned except for former/current ones that end up on whatever team i am playing for

also, i think the admins need to make a PUBLIC APOLOGY to all ddosers. they are just misunderstood. they dont know where their packets are going. they think they are helping. just ask them guys. its all just a big misunderstanding.

[Cookiemonster]

[KillEmAll]

Lan proven, or your a hack.

[detox]

If sufficient evidence is collected against a suspected cheater, PACO should review it and make the verdict soley by himself. Many people in this community might have expertise in this field but all suffer from the human flaws of bias and speculation. I'm not saying PACO is immortal or anything, but he's the closest thing we have to a perfect system.

[Sauron]

[Sonic|^]

Man, this thread is taking me back to the good ol days.

[PACO]

[GS3k]

[Cookiemonster]