Gauging interest and getting feedback..

[PACO]

Greetings friends,

Summer is halfway over and now it is time to take a long hard look at the Fall. As per tradition, we will be running another KOTG (possibly some slight changes) however this thread is more geared towards a new league/tournament.

I'll get straight into the meat.. I would like to try some new things and implement some new rules.


In an iCTF season, we can get anywhere from 170-240 signups. A lot of those signups are inactive players that we struggle to rank and some of the players are complete unknowns. This obviously affects rankings, has people question commitment and affects seasons negatively. I'm proposing that players have not "officially" joined the league until they have 5 pugs under their belt within the signup period.

This might hurt some of the inflated signup numbers but I think it will have an overall positive impact on the league by determining which players are here to play and which players aren't committed. Quality is always better than quantity in my opinion. What are people's thoughts on this first suggestion?


Duku is going the way of the dodo. This map is dead and done for. While it will still be eligible for pugs, I am looking for a complete revamp on season maps and only including maps that will put teams outside of their comfort zone or maps that have proven not to be turtle-heavy (Command). This means that maps like Pryxon, Rune, Complex will see more burn and Factions maps like Elsinore and Adonis will be moving up to the big leagues.

I get that everyone has a "favorite" map and that this slow genocide of iCTF maps can be off-putting but I believe that it is a necessary evil. Is anyone violently opposed to this or are people willing to give it a chance?


I like the way that map picks have been done in advance. I think it makes the matches a lot more competitive and a lot less puggy. For this reason, map selection will once again be determined in advance however I started getting some crazy ideas and might need some of you kind folks to talk me down. A lot of people have suggested multi-mod seasons and while I think they could be cool, I'm not willing to completely throw myself behind the idea. Instead, I would like to see a predominantly iCTF league with tiebreakers being determined by a different gametype.

Example:
Week 1: iDOM
Week 2: saCTF
Week 3: sDOM

Week 1: PACO wins Command and Adonis.. no tiebreaker. PACO wins Command and loses Adonis.. a 4v4 iDOM tiebreaker is played between the teams.

I think it could be a nice way to add some flavor to the season and show some of the other gametypes some love. I would keep the maplist at a maximum of 5 maps for the "other" gametypes and have it be as manageable as possible for new players to pick up and learn the maps that they will be playing.

Personally, I love this idea however it's not just about me and for this reason I would like to hear what people think on the matter. Do you like it? Dislike it? Is it a dealbreaker? Is it a dealmaker? It is probably the most controversial change that I would make to the upcoming season and I want to know where people stand on it.


Development matches were an idea that I introduced several years ago. I think that they served a purpose and helped to ignite a large portion of the community however I would like to see most of these dev players playing in regular matches. A lot of them are certainly good enough to start and definitely have the competitive drive. In a dream scenario, I would like to hit 24 captains with team sizes of 7 or 8 however 20 might be more realistic. We have had a lot of people step up over the years and there is no longer a good-ol-boys network of regulars captaining.

If you can captain and volunteer your time, please post in this thread and/or contact me on IRC. 20-24 captains would help in a lot of different ways. It would introduce a lot of players to the big leagues and the talent being spread over two dozen teams would help with in-game stagnation. It's a lot harder to cap on a starting 5 who is all shooting 40acc however that should not happen with 20+ teams.


Do people have an interest in either of these tournaments? Is it worth pursuing and setting up?

I am hoping to get some good insight from the community. Please shower me with your thoughts since they will impact a lot of the decisions moving forward.

PACO

[Viperzz^]

[ScReaM]

i would love too see LMS , and the other sounds great and fun also i would easy captain up

[HULKSMASH]

Rip Dev matches.

No point in signing up then as The backups backups backup.


Toodles

[Sdaco|JrmY]

Bunny Track

[Lineage]

#1 - I like it at first blush. I'm sure something will come up that makes it seem less attractive of an option.

#2 - Dukubro, Brokenleagues (set this one on fire after shooting to death), non-sniper-edited Command, Sprinta-to-class

#3 - No. You tried the random mod thing when you did it with LMS and it was gimmicky as fuck. Immense dislike.
I do think keeping the map selection as it was in sniper is the way to go.

#4 - Not too sure on this. Many of the lower ranked players and I assume a few captains that forfeited were not thrilled with the last sniper system. Many of the lower salary players didn't play all year, and were essentially roster placeholders. You will also gut the FA list to the point it's completely inactives and randoms to the point that if a player or two is missing from a team for any given reason (ISP died, family emergency, appendectomy..whatever) that it's almost guaranteed forfeit or reschedule unless another team loans out a player.

#5 - Not really on my end, but other people seem to like both. I personally think tLMS dies when people start camping zones and movement is basically non-existant. 19 minutes of a sundown standoff with a single minute of activity at the end, exciting streams to be had there -_-

[PACO]

[Zac]

LMS and multiCTF seems very cool and very fun, just like all of your ideas. the rest of the feedback is also fine by me in that matter.

[PACO]

[exixt]

I'm a fan of suggestions 1 and 2.

Even though I met the legendary rasta-man (and Bas, I think?) in the first team LMS when OW was GU, I just can't see another team LMS let alone multictf being popular enough to run.

But if I'd have to choose one, I'd go for suggestion 1. Reasoning? Err, we don't like inactive players who sign up and literally never pugs.

[Lineage]

I don't disagree with the numbers. Simply put, it's which numbers are playing.

In the dev game system, the middle tier of 650-900 usually ends up having the most FA's, because of the cap system etc etc.. In this past sniper season, there was no cap during drafting and people took the highest rated at a given position unless they went for next round draft position (generally speaking). The lower tier players languished on the bench all year, never getting a chance to play like they do in dev games due to the 2 out of 5 starter rule. The only way a low salary player played in ANY match this sniper season was if a starter in the 700-1500 range was missing, or they pugged on Sundays and pretended it was the playoffs.

Now, hear me out. I definitely got more playing time this last season as a full-time starter instead of flaky 6th man/dev all*star, but I know what it feels like to show up on Sundays to be a cheerleader, not even getting the chance to play in a meager dev game as they weren't around. For some 150$ players, they look forward to that dev game and half a point, it gives them a reason to sign up and show up. Essentially you're telling them to sign up for the leagues to pug and watch streams of "their team" play. They have no emotional or physical investment in the league other than pushing Yes to the sign up button after entering in a few bits of fake information. They have nothing to keep them coming back, and relying on the charm of UT when it's pushing two decades is crazy.

edit - you pretty much responded to this before I posted but I couldn't just delete it all

[blackout\\]

Maybe try no starter dev games. That way devs are more inclined to pug, make an impact on points, and starters dont have to worry about carrying dev games or burn themselves out before a reg game.

I might just have that old mentality that a team's strongest should have just that, the strongest. That sort of throws it out the window when reg games have dev level players in them as well.

Also I'm fine with suggestion #1

[d3R]

[massie]

PACO and admin team thank you again for keeping it going really appreciate it!

1
Totally dig this man so annoying to see ppl dont really care about it but there is a difference between not caring about it and not having time for it or something comes up etc etc.
I think we need a good trading system with dev and reg players(fully available) on backup especially reg coz they can make or break the team i think this is needed to fill in the gaps. We need a small list of players like that wich are locked untill final teams are decided im not sure exactly how to work this out and what to do with the players who are not needed when final teams are decided but this way we exclude the possibility of a team getting knocked out becoz of 1 player dropping out u can never forsee this, its just a thought

2
This is very important we need topnotch maps to make more ppl interested im not a mapmaker but what i do know is all the populair maps are pretty simple and fragheavy.
We need simple maps wich are not too complicated take duku for example its a simple map but still u have ways to fool ppl etc this also brings in the advantage that ppl new to the maps dont need a crazy amount of time spending on it to get familiar it will make more ppl sign up.

3
Great idea! though i wouldnt really like to play sactf for a tiebreaker if i signedup for ictf but thats me im 100% hardcore insta player

4
Removing dev matches would be really good for the timedifference but not sure if it will workout with amount and what kind of players in a team and how to setup matches etc

5
mICTF or TLMS would be cool and i would deffo play!

[Pun`]

Hmmn.. I'm concerned about dropping the dev system.. If the eligibility thing with smaller teams worked and people turned up it could fly but if the teams are that small and people don't show there will be loads of forfeits?
The SA tournie was a total waste of time for me (one of the most active players in the game and an old, long standing sa player). I was there every week but so was everyone else, meaning i was benched for the entire tournie as i'm not as good as Sponge... Due to this i decided i wouldn't bother signing up on those terms again :/
So how will the numbers work (Little bit more explanation?), giving space for the no-shows and still letting a selection of dev players have some involvement? The fact that the points were half for dev meant the captains could be nice and risk fielding low skilled players. It would be great if everyone active could get more game time, or the chance at more game time. I like the dev system but it still leaves more than 80% completely benched after the play offs (I think), good to look at options. Personally i don't see this one working but this is a quick reactionary post and i also appreciate that 10, 40 acc players fighting it out in ot isn't much fun for the community.
As for the rest, very happy with the map revamp, the tie breaker sounds like a curious curve ball but i like it and i'd love an mCTF tournie but LMS is good too. I'd sign up to either.

[Hermione]

I like these tournaments, I think their pretty cool, but pun is right, I also signed up and was available every week in my teams channel and ready to play but I guess my team didn't want me to play in those games, thats alright but in the end it ends up being a big waste of time for all the lower salaried players who are active that wanna play. The problem I think is you have a ton of people signing up, but a shit load of them will never be put on to play.

[JINNZILLA]

i agree

[RickJames]

I like all of PACO's proposals, although it seems that getting 20 capts/teams and making them relatively even to keep people interested and not forfeiting will be a real challenge. I think it's proven historically that a team with 2 top guys and 3 low ones is still stronger than a team of 5 middle-of-the-pack guys. If you look at the teams that are the most successful in all leagues in the past few years, they have one constant: 1 or 2 top-tier players. There are only so many top guys to go around, so you definitely will end up with quite a few teams that rely on depth. This issue becomes a much bigger deal if you get captains who make bad decisions, so you definitely want 20 quality capts, no losahs in there.

I love the multi-mod tb idea (more sdom, idom, bunnytrack is always a good thing and it breaks the monotony for people like me who are still sick of ctf in general). I love the idea of other tournaments, be they mCTF or LMS or whatever, for the same reason.

[PACO]

[PACO]

I was also thinking that for suggestion #1, the requirements could be lessened to something like 3 games. 3-5 is probably the sweet zone of making people appear and show their faces before the season.

[rev]

SUGGESTION #1 - ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS

This is a great idea. The obvious risk is that it may diminish sign ups but if theyre not going to pug theyre probably not going to play anyways.

SUGGESTION #2 - Maplist Revamp
I'm all for this..I think part of the reason factions was so fun was because of the introduction of good, new maps.

SUGGESTION #3 - Map selection and Multi-Mod Tiebreakers:

Yup.

SUGGESTION #4 - No Development Matches - 20-24 Team Season
I personally have never been much of a fan of dev games. I would rather just pug. If talent is dispersed enough and low skilled players are able to play in regular matches, this is a much better solution imo.

SUGGESTION #5 - MultiCTF or Team LMS Tournament:
Team LMS was one of the funnest tournaments. Doing a factions type 1-2 day tournament sounds like a blast to me. MCTF is fun but the maps are lacking.

All good suggestions. My primary concern if there's to be an ictf season, and I think it's reflected by many players; is that the ictf mod is too easy to effectively lame rendering it a snooze fest. I think we should start trying some suggestions that have been put forward in other threads to help mitigate this. Having talent much more spread out and attack friendly maps will help, but I'm not completely sold on it.

[pulip]

I find the maplist of last iCTF season very good. Just drop Duku and add couple new ones if you want them in.

Also Dev game should be in. Make them so you are not allowed to field your highest salary player

[Sakura|FACE]

I'm always the sixth person out so I don't sign up for leagues. I was a starter the first or second ictf and that was it.

[HUMPTY]

#1
Maybe should only come into effect for people who havent played at least # amount of league matches..for me personally(and im sure many others) i don't want to pug but do want to play the leagues and have played in several leagues in the past

#2
Fair enough, Hopefully its a balanced maplist and not 9 of the same type of map.

#3
Not so sure about this, With most people not really knowing idom too well..the best fragging team wins which ain't always the case in ctf..if you want to go multi mod go full multi mod

#4
I guess its a bit of a necessity now to water down the teams to include the maximum amount of ppl

#5
yup, For me personally these are way more fun than the leagues

[Sauron]

Teams of 5 with 2 protected drops. Captains choose based on activity, everyone on the team plays. If someone doesn't show up, FAs are available (hopefully not many FAs). Salary cap is relatively strict (strict enough to avoid FA stacking but not strict enough to prohibit FA pickups entirely/trades). Just throwing out some ideas, might not be feasible.

[FALLACY]

SUGGESTION #1 - ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS:
Great idea but should exempt players that were recently active in saCTF season or have been actively pugging. Only apply to players who were not.

SUGGESTION #2 - Maplist Revamp:
We've lost plenty of classics through out the years in order to improve leagues and everyone survived and played on just fine. It's definitely sad to see this happen but with the state of the game and the way that it is played currently a drastic change needs to be made in order for the stale game play to be dissolved. Revamping the map list is a great place to start.

SUGGESTION #3 - Map selection and Multi-Mod Tiebreakers:
Great idea imo. This might actually change how captains pick their teams. However, I feel that something like this should be left to chance and not have a set game type for each week. Do something like this, to keep it completely random. I think that would be more entertaining.

SUGGESTION #4 - No Development Matches - 20-24 Team Season:
At this point I don't feel there is a need for Dev games. Would rather see more teams with a smaller rosters. And for those who complain about Dev matches going away or being a 6th man for every team you're on, as always, step up and captain. Problem solved.

SUGGESTION #5 - MultiCTF or Team LMS Tournament:
Tournaments are always fun and usually draw a good amount of players. Would expand on this though, I think it would be cool to see a triathlon type tournament. Team of x amount of players play one map of each stage, ie. Stage 1: MultiCTF / Stage 2: Team LMS / Stage 3: sDOM etc. Community picks top map for each stage of each game type based on vote. Enforce 10 or 15 minute time limit. Might be a lot of work but involving a bunch of different game types into one tournament at once would be a change of pace. (Edit: wouldn't mind seeing a nwTDM tournament.)

[bug]

[kevinsan1ty]

Idea 1: Great idea, but sucks for people who don't have time during the week to pug. At this point I'd love to participate in a season but I'd struggle to get 1 pug in a week, much less 5 in a signup period. I still like it and hope something like it is implemented.

Idea 2: Excellent.

Idea 3: I like where your head is at, but the 4v4 mods eliminate the 5th player and it sucks for that person.

Idea 4: Perfect. I've long advocated for this solution. Dev matches are cool and all but I think everyone would rather play in the games that "matter." You could easily reach 20-24 captains by making all admins who sign up captain. If they don't have the time to captain (it's not that much of a time commitment), they don't have time to admin. These are the leaders of the community, they can lead teams.

I also liked bug's idea of making it so everyone has to play a certain amount of maps throughout the season. Makes for interesting strategy. Tough to implement.

Idea 5: Multi-day tournaments are fun, and get a lot of interest. They're great for the lulls in between seasons.

[PACO]

[miracle]